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Watchmen → Theorycrafting → Maxing expertise discussion.
 

Topic: Maxing expertise discussion.

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Shin
Xinika the Omnispawna
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Maxing expertise discussion.
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So I've been testing it out (1390 exp) and my results so far have been... interesting. Definitely feel tankier, but the damage is definitely less. So here's the problem. My playstyle centers generally around not taking damage and shutting down an opponent before they can react. If I'm not taking damage, then the expertise won't matter that much.

Is there a counter argument to this or have I not got enough wzs played? I was struggling for 5k crits as infil today which is abnormal for me. 23/1/17 However, definitely feels like it works much better with high exp. Certainly, certainly.

DPS specs though? I'm not sure about that.



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Glassjaw
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28k > 1380
/thread

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Soultiger
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I was going to test this myself as me and mace were discussing vanguard/tank builds stacking End/Exp and how expertise have such little curve in DR. Ill do some research and see what I come up with.

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nick wars: the lonely republic
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Manhattan
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I have 1290 exp and still do piss poor damage.

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okema
Oke!
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I hope it's ok if I chime in here with my opinion.. I have always been a low roller on expertise but realised that stacking expertise 1250 is kind of sweet (especially on our server).. I don't personally know if stacking above 1300 is really the way to go.. We had a sentinel in our guild who went mad about a concealer constantly hitting him for over 5k damage (I know the comparison is kinda bad, but meh). He then went nuts on expertise.. I think he ended up being kind of a dead fish, since the gain he got was so small, and he wasn't pulling the damage anymore and I honestly believe that at a certain expertise level you get more out of stacking endurance, if you really want to be a bit more beefier, than stacking expertise up the limbo.

Also it really depends how well you work in a team. We got this guild on our server who roll insanely low expertise. But it works for them, as they work greatly as a team with stuns, taunts etc.. People are overall not taking much damage and the dps gain they get is aschmazing.

So my probably worthless opinion is:
1. You get targetted a lot -> more expertise yay, but more than 1300 nay
2. You defend nodes -> more expertise probably yay too, but to be discussed



-- Edited by okema on Friday 21st of December 2012 05:23:05 AM

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Dritzfury
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Bout 1250ish seems to be the sweet spot imho.



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Kamdus
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Could just be a while since I've played, but what if you're the class producing the heals? Is the bonus from expertise worth sacrificing the stats that it benefits from? (power and crit)



-- Edited by Kamdus on Saturday 22nd of December 2012 12:36:17 AM

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okema
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Sorry, Mace don't want to sound rude, but do the numbers you ran also factor in the use of taunts and overall crowd control?

Say one team is heavy on control and keeping taunts up, while the other slacks a bit but has the slightly higher expertise, do you still think higher expertise is preferred? Also, what happens on equal terms? Maybe a stupid question, and I guess the protection from Expertise will make everything even again, but I'm tired, don't like doing maths and wanted to have it asked anyway :p..



-- Edited by okema on Saturday 22nd of December 2012 04:21:59 AM

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Mace
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Anecdotal evidence gets you nowhere in these discussions. "Sweet spots" and so on don't exist unless there's a real dropoff above that, which isn't true for expertise.

 

https://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp45/Antimony_photo/2500RatingBenefit.png

 

The curves don't magically drop off above 1250, they don't even drop off at unattainable numbers.

 

I've run the numbers, and the long and short of it is this:

 

If you want to hit the largest possible numbers on someone ELSE in low expertise gear, wear ~1100 expertise yourself. You'll get the most damage output this way, by a small margin (an ~1100 expertise player hits another ~1100 expertise player harder than a ~1400 expertise player hits an ~1100 expertise player). 

 

The difference comes in when you're fighting ~1100 expertise vs. ~1400 expertise. The 1400 expertise person will ALWAYS hit the 1100 expertise person harder than the 1100 expertise person will hit back, 100% guaranteed. The 1100 expertise person will have slightly more health and slightly lower mitigation, and slightly more effective health. 

 

This is where it gets interesting, because in an actual 1v1 between these two characters the 1100 expertise player would win due to the HP being a bigger boost than the mitigation in EHP, if zero healing occurs during the fight (also assuming zero damage multipliers from abilities, which isn't ever true and actually swings the fight in favor of the high expertise player in pretty much every imaginable situation).

If a healer is involved or the players can heal themselves, the mitigation quickly overtakes the max HP in terms of EHP for the fight (the number is below 1000 total healing done). An exaggerated example would be two DPS's hammering on each other with one healer healing each one. The higher expertise DPS would win in this scenario (it would take forever) because his EHP with healing factored in is higher. Some classes do healing in terms of their max hp (as do medpacks), in which case having the slightly higher max HP would cause them to do more healing, but in none of the calcs I performed did the small amount of healing gained outweigh the mitigation in terms of EHP for the entire fight. 

 

TL;DR: Get max expertise if you want to win. If you want pretty numbers against scrubs, use PvE armorings and power crystals. 



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Mace
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@Kam,

 

As far as heals go, the curve diminishes at the exact same rate (just a lower value), but the same 'gist' will apply. You can't do as much of a "if 2 healers are each healing themselves which will die first?" comparison, but you can see which will last longer given  someone applying "X" DPS to them. The long and short of it in the limited analysis that I did is that it's very, very close in terms of overall healing output between 1100 and 1400 expertise, but the person with 1400 expertise lives significantly longer under equal pressure, especially if the person attacking them has lower expertise than they do (i.e. a person with 1100 expertise attacking an 1100 expertise healer gets the kill far quicker than attacking an equally geared 1400 expertise healer). I can't see the survivability boost ever not paying off for a healer, since they're in control of how much healing they receive (and thus, how much mileage that extra mitigation gets). 

 

@okema

 

You didn't sound rude at all. 

 

In terms of taunts, it shouldn't have any extra effect either way. Same DR applied in both cases, and while it's multiplicative with the DR from expertise (meaning the DR gained from expertise is smaller in a raw %-value), you're still gaining the same EHP boost per point of DR from the taunt in either scenario. 

 

As far as CC, I'm not really sure I follow the line of reasoning. Since both teams have the same CC available to them, it seems as though whichever was better pre-CC should be better post-CC. I could see a scenario where a team could lock down both healers to the point where no heals are received at all, in which case the minor EHP bonus from a low-expertise setup would net a better result since the mitigation of the high-expertise setup isn't getting as much mileage. Seems like a pretty rare case though, and in any case where the heals are actually going out, the team with the higher expertise should be at an advantage. 

 

Now, if two teams both have 1100 expertise and one has a lot of CC, the DPS on that team would be able to kill the other 1100 expertise team more quickly than a similarly geared 1400 expertise team would kill them. This might be why the 'good' teams on your server seem more dominating, as they're probably crushing other low-expertise geared teams really quickly. Like I said in the other post, if you want to put up pretty numbers and demoralize people, lower expertise is the way to go. In a straight competition of two well-geared, highly skilled teams, expertise is still the PvP stat of choice. 

 

Quick caveat: my comparions were between PvE armorings vs. PvP armorings. In those cases, you're trading main stat + endurance for expertise, and you're getting them at a lower ratio. This isn't the case for color crystals though, where you're trading 1:1 expertise for a stat. It might be better to go for one of those crystals, I'm not sure at this point. I am sure about the armorings, though, and I expect the crystals are extremely close whichever side comes out on top. 



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okema
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Thanks for the write-up!

I forwarded this to my guild and hopefully we can try out some test runs with full expertise :)..

Just to make sure, I'm really tired, but with EHP you meant Expertise Health Points right?



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Lucyford
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effective hp

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Mace
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^^ Yep, effective hit points. Basically the total amount of damage required to kill you including mitigation. 

 

If you had zero mitigation and 20k hp, for example, your EHP would be 20k. If you had 50% mitigation and 20k hp, your EHP would be 40k. 

 

Most basic examples and it's never that simple, but that's the gist of it. 



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